AS:038 9/11 Survivor and his Service Dog

Intro:: 00:08

Welcome to the Accessibility Solutions Podcast, hosted by Linda Hunt, an award winning accessibility consultant, speaker, and author. With over 30 years experience in senior management rules and indeed passion for creating inclusive environments, Linda brings us unmatched expertise and credibility to our discussions. Join us as we explore the Transformative Power of accessibility and inclusion in today's world. Through captivating conversations, Linda shares her wealth of knowledge, provides practical solutions, and sheds light on the latest trends and investments in the field. Whether you're a business owner or disability advocate, or simply curious about the world of accessibility, this podcast is your go to resource. Get ready to unlock new perspectives, breakdown barriers, and embark on a journey of empowerment. Are you ready to create a more inclusive world? Let's begin. Welcome to the Accessibility Solutions Podcast.

Linda: 01:02

So hi everyone, and thanks for tuning in to the Accessibility Solutions podcast. This episode, I am very, very pleased to have my friend Michael Hingson with me. Michael has been blind since birth. He was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike and did advanced math in his head and learned to read and write Braille. That is, Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with guide dogs for the blind and received his first guide dog. He later went to college, receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in physics, along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly 30 year career working for high tech companies, spending most of his time in management rules. Michael's life changed dramatically on September 11th, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center, moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the International Lime Light, where Michael began to share his unique survival story at 9-11. Lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Michael has served as the National Public Affairs Director for one of the largest not for profit organizations in the nation, Guide Dogs for the blind. He serves as vice president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users, holds seats on other agency boards, including the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the blind, the Earle Baum Center for the blind, and the Colorado Center for the blind. Michael is the National Ambassador for the Braille Literacy Campaign and the National Federation of the blind. He is the founder of the Roselle's Dream Foundation helping the blind obtain the technology they need to not only excel in school and at work, but to live out their dreams

Until October: 2019

Michael: 05:02

Well, thanks, it's good to be here and to have the opportunity to talk with you and your listeners. On September 11th, something happened that I didn't realize for a long time afterward. But what happened prior to September 11th was that I had spent a lot of time learning about the World Trade Center. I was the leader of the office that I ran with, a company called Quantum Corporation that asked me to open an office and I did. Quantum made the products that people would use to back up their computer data over their networks and store it on, at that time, magnetic tape. So I ran an office for Quantum. We opened in August of 2000. We opened it on the 78th floor of Tower 1 of the World Trade Center. And that's where I was on September 11th when everything happened. We now know the issue is that being the leader of that office, I knew that as a blind person, I had to operate a little bit differently than people normally would. That is to say, sighted people have the opportunity to read signs and do other things like that to be able to function and so on. But I knew that for me as the leader of an office, I needed to be able to do the same things sighted people did, but I didn't have access to exactly the same process to do it. So I Learned about the World Trade Center. I learned where everything was. I learned where different companies were located in the building. And I also spent time learning about the emergency evacuation procedures and all the emergency preparedness things that I could. And I also learned about where restaurants and so on were. So that if I were meeting with some of my staff and people that they invited to come to the office for a demo of our equipment, so on. And we decided we were gonna go to lunch. I could say, well, what kind of food do you want? Oh, well, let me take you and literally lead them just like anyone else would who was the leader of an office. I couldn't say I don't know how to get anywhere cause I'm blind and I have to be led around cause I don't really know how would that work. A few hours later, if we then came back to the office and we were negotiating multi million dollar contracts which happened. So the bottom line is I needed to be able to take charge like anyone else would and deal with the issues. And so I learned everything that I could. What happened that I didn't realize until many, many years later as I just didn't think about it was that while all that was occurring and I was learning all that I could learn, I was really creating a mindset that allowed me to know what to do when an emergency actually did occur on September 11th. And that was why I was able to escape and focus and help other people escape and encourage my guide dog Roselle to go down the stairs. And remember that you need to know what a guide dog does and doesn't do. Guide dogs don't lead blind people. Everybody says that all the time. They're wrong. Guide dogs do not lead blind people. The job of a guide dog is to make sure that we walk safely, but it's my job to know where to go and how to get there. And so I learned all of that, as I said. And so when the emergency did occur and we started down the stairs, I kept telling Roselle what a good dog, good girl, keep going, what a good girl. And focused on that all the way down because I wanted Roselle to know that I was okay. It didn't matter what I was feeling. And I was nervous like everyone else, but I also knew that I had the knowledge of what to do in an emergency. And so I couldn't worry about things that I had no control over. I mean, if the building suddenly collapsed, the building would suddenly collapse. There's nothing I could do but as long as I could go down the stairs and focus and do that, I could do that. And so I kept encouraging Roselle and helping other people who panicked occasionally on the stairs. And I and other people did keep a few people from panicking. But we went down the stairs and we were able to get to the bottom and then get outside in the ways that the people who were there, who were directing us told us to go. And one of the things that they told us and they kept saying was don't go outside through the doors right in Tower 1. Don't do that. And later we realized that was because if we had gone out, that was right below where people were jumping. We had to go across to the other side of the complex to get out so that we were as far away from people jumping in the towers as we could be. We had no idea what happened. We had no idea that an aircraft had crashed into Tower 1. And then later, one in Tower 2. People, of course, always say, well, blind people wouldn't know that you couldn't see it. Excuse me, the last time I checked, Superman and X ray vision are fictitious. We were on the 78th floor on the south side of the building. The aircraft hit between floors 93 and 99 on the north side of the building, basically 18 floors of steel and concrete and other things between us and the other side of the building between us. And what was happening. No one where I was, no one going down the stairs knew what happened. We decided that an airplane hit the building because we began smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel as we were going down the stairs because the fumes really went up and down the stairs. No fire where we were, but certainly a lot of odor of kerosene burning and so on. And I observed it first and told others I saw in the fuse from burning Jeff fuel, and they said, yeah, we were trying to figure that out. We must have been hit by an airplane, but we had no details. So anyway, we did get down the stairs. We passed firefighters going up the stairs and interacted with them a little bit. They wanted to help me down the stairs and I resisted because I knew that I could walk down the stairs a whole lot better than somebody grabbing my arm and trying to hustle me down in a way that wasn't gonna really work very well. And I also knew that the firefighters, because I had spent time learning about their processes, I knew that they were a team and I didn't wanna break up their team. So eventually, when they kept insisting to help me, I finally said, look, I got my friend David here, who is my colleague from our corporate office, who was in the office that day. And I said, David can see we're good. And they asked him, are you okay with him? And David said, yeah, leave him alone. He's good. And so we went on down the stairs. But the issue is, again, I had to deal with that because I knew what the process was. And I said, I didn't wanna break up their team and I didn't want them to have to be responsible for me and do things that they didn't know how to do, like walkside a guide. And I had Roselle and I had stair rails, so I didn't need help going down the stairs. Anyway, we got down and we got outside and we walked over to Broadway. And then we were walking north on Broadway, on the left side or west side of the street if we were going north. And we were at Vesey Street when Tower 2 collapsed. We were close to it. David had gotten some pictures of Tower 2 and so he wanted to take pictures with his camera and he did. I tried to call my wife, Karen. I had called Karen just before we left our offices and told her that there had been an explosion or something. We didn't know what. And she wanted to know more. And I said, I don't know more as long before the media got the story. And anyway, I tried to call her while we were at Vesey Street. I couldn't get through. And later we Learned that was because people who were up in the towers were saying goodbye to their loved ones, and tower two collapsed and everyone turned and ran. David ran, he was gone. I literally lifted Roselle by the harness, turned 180 degrees, and started running back the way I came. We ran to the next street, now going south with a building on my right on Broadway. That was Fulton Street. We turned right on Fulton Street, and we ran about 25 yards and suddenly caught up to David, who had realized that he had just run off and left me and was gonna come back and try to find me. I found him first, and we kept running. We were in the dust cloud, all of the dirt and debris in the dust that was coming from the breakup of Tower 2. David said he couldn't even see his hand six inches in front of his face, and with every breath I took, I could feel just dirt and junk going into my lungs. We ran, and then suddenly I heard an opening on my right, and I've been telling Roselle, go right, right. I wanted her to get inside of a building because we wanted to get out of the dust cloud anyway. Suddenly I heard an opening on my right, and Roselle, although I wasn't sure until that moment, knew what I wanted. She turned right, she took one step, she stopped, and she wouldn't move. But I said, come on, Rosell, keep going, and she would move. And I realized she stopped for a reason, and I investigated as I know how to do and discovered that we were at the top of a flight of stairs. So after Roselle got a hug for doing the right thing, I told her what I should have said in the beginning, which was forward. And we walk down the flight of stairs and find ourselves in an arcade entrance to a subway station, Fulton Street Station. There were some other people there and we were there for a couple of minutes, and then an employee from the subway system came up, introduced himself as Liu and an employee of the system, took eight or nine of us down to an employee locker room in the subway station. And there we stayed for a while until a police officer came and said, the air is clear up above and you need to leave now. Again, still not knowing anything else, we went upstairs. We got outside. David looked around and he said, oh my God, Mike, there's no Tower 2 anymore. And I said, what do you see? And he said, all I see are pillars of smoke hundreds of feet tall. And we stood there for a moment, and then we just continued to walk west on Fulton Street, moving out of the area. We walked for a little wires, a little ways, and then we heard the sound. I described it as a freight train in a waterfall, kind of a combination. And it's the same thing I heard when Tower 2 was collapsing. And we realized it must be our tower collapsing and coming down. David looked, and he said, there's another dust cloud coming. We hunkered down behind a small retaining wall until everything passed by. And then we stood up and David looked around and he said, oh my god, Mike, there's no World Trade Center anymore. And I said, what do you see? And he said, all I see are fingers of fire and flame, hundreds of feet tall, pillars of smoke, the system that the center is gone. Who would have thought? We stood there for a moment, and then I tried to call Karen, and this time I got through. And she's the first one who told us how two aircraft had been hijacked and crashed into the towers. One into the Pentagon, and a fourth, at that time was still missing over Pennsylvania. Of course, that was Flight 93 that crashed in Shanksville. As I said, who would have thought just a few hours before we had gone into mind our own business, do some seminars and so on. And suddenly, in the blink of an eye, if you will, everything changed and the world changed forever. The storage, but you know that I'm just, I'm trying to, I mean, I can't even, I can't even imagine being in that situation. I'm gonna guess that everybody that was going down the stairs not knowing what was happening there would have had to have had some level of panic. Well, there was, there was some, you know, a few people started to panic. Like we were about 10 floors down from our floor and a woman behind me said, I can't breathe, I can't go on, we're not gonna make it out of here. And literally I stopped and turned around and gazed, turned around and other people surrounded her as well. And literally we had a group hug right there on the stairs. And I said, come on, of course you can go down the stairs, let's just keep going and there were a few times that happened as we went down the stairs. My friend David panicked at one point, and I just said in a sharper voice that I could stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down the stairs, so can you. And that brought him out of his panicking and caused him to focus again. So we knew instinctively that we didn't dare allow panic and fear to overwhelm us. But again, everyone had to work on it in their own ways. But we did, and we kept other people from panicking. And we went down the stairs. And I'm writing a book about that which will be published in August of 2024. It's called Live Like a Guide Dog.: True Stories from a Blind Man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity, and walking in faith. And the idea behind living like a Guide Dog is, but I learned lessons from all of my dogs that were part of what helped me on September 11th. Dogs don't do what if they don't allow all of that to build up fear inside of them. And it's something that we all are to learn about, for example. And there are other lessons about focusing. Dogs don't trust unconditionally. They love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But dogs are more open to trust than we are because things happen that we don't have control over, but that send us a message, don't trust. We really need to get over that kind of thing. We need to worry about the things that we can control and don't worry about the rest. So that in fact, by only focusing on what we can control, we have a lot more opportunity to focus and do the right thing if you will. So those are lessons that are very important and will be discussed in Live like a Guide Dog that will be coming out in August.

Linda: 17:58

Well, look forward to that. But where you were living in New York City, obviously, or wherever it was you were living when you were obviously a commuter. So you were commuting into the World Trade Center. How long did it actually take you to get home that day?

Michael: 18:14

Well, we lived in Westfield, New Jersey. So normally it's close to an hour by the time you take into account train transfers and so on. Take a path train, as it's called Path Transfer Port Authority Trans Hudson. It's a dedicated train that goes to a couple of places in New Jersey, from the World Trade Center and Penn Station in Midtown Manhattan and you take the train to Newark. Then you take another train, in our case from Newark, the Raritan Valley line to Westfield, New Jersey, and then a ride home from there. So it's roughly an hour and could be a little longer. But that day David and I walked toward Midtown Manhattan and then we were finally able to hitch a ride to the apartment of a friend of David's. And we stayed there for a while until I learned that the trains were running. And then I wanted to obviously get home. And so David wanted to get to where he was normally staying, which was with his sister on the Upper East Side. And so we left and went uptown, caught a bus to go part way, and got to Penn Station. He continued up toward Midtown, man, well past Midtown to the Upper East Side. As I went into the train station and caught trains to Penn Station in Newark and then went from there to Westfield, I talked to Karen a couple of times, my wife on the phone during the day. And she's the one who let us know originally that the trains were running again or that there was transportation from New York to New Jersey. And so when I knew exactly what was happening with us, I kept her informed. A friend of ours, Tom Payner, a long time friend who Karen had known since high school in California, was also living in New Jersey. And he had come down not even knowing if I was working that day in the World Trade Center or at home or whatever. And he stayed with Karen and drove her to the train station to pick me up. I should explain that Karen also is a person who has a so-called disability. She happened to be in a wheelchair her whole life. I say it the way I do because I think that we really need to change how we think about so called disabilities. The reality is most all people, everyone in this country and in the world, has a disability. For most of you, your disability is that you are light-dependent. You don't see well when suddenly there's a power failure, the lights go out and you have to scramble around to find a smartphone or a flashlight or something. And if you can't, you're in the dark, especially at night time. None of that bothers me because I am not light dependent. I am light independent. So my definition, and you can argue that all you want, but the bottom line is that whether you like it or not, your disability is only covered by the fact that we have light on demand or artificial lighting so readily available that most of the time it's not a problem for you until it is. And I've seen situations where I've been in power failures even in the middle of the day or in the afternoon and people panic because suddenly the lights go out because now they don't have what they're normally comfortable with. None of that bothers me. So my belief is that we should really define, redefine disability to be a characteristic that everyone has that manifests itself differently depending on your situation and what your type of disability is, but everyone has it.

Linda: 21:32

Most people know, I'm a power wheelchair user. So from the standpoint of, if I had been on the 78th floor, I would have needed to rely on somebody to literally carry me down the stairs, cause the elevators wouldn't have been working.

Michael: 21:49

Well, they were, they were working, but in an emergency situation where there was fire in the building. And we knew that as David saw it even before we left our floor with fire. you didn't dare take elevators because they could have gotten into the elevator shafts, which it did. And anybody in the elevators would perish or be very seriously burned. Yeah, so, yeah, you would have had to be carried, or there are cape chairs that I think are more prevalent now in the World Trade Center and other tall buildings than they were before. Yes, people can get down, but still nevertheless, it's an issue.

Linda: 22:24

And, and I think, I think you're right. We, regardless of whatever your situation is, the disability is, you know, that may be attached to the person. It's the barrier that hinders that person with a disability.

Michael: 22:28

So like I said, everyone has a disability. And the lesson to be learned is people shouldn't just rely on signs when they're somewhere to know what to do. If you're gonna be spending any considerable amount of time in a building like the World Trade Center or your office or wherever, you gotta learn not only what the procedures are for emergencies, but you ought to learn how to get out without having the access to science, because you may very well not be able to read signs. You may have a smoke filled building, and I've helped people develop evacuation procedures for some buildings where they were very concerned that if there's smoke, how are people gonna be able to get out of these rooms? We talked about that, and they developed some ways of doing it, but the bottom line is that people shouldn't just rely on signs. Yeah, they're really lovely and they work until they don't. And so it is an issue that people should, should really take to heart, learn. Don't just rely on signs. Learn and truly know. It also helps create a better mindset because knowledge gives you power and gives you a better ability to focus because you know what the process is and you know what, you know how to do. Yeah, something could change all that. Like while we were in Tower 1 coming down, the building could have collapsed and then where would we be? But there was no sense worrying about that because if it happened, it happened and we spend, as I said earlier, so much time doing what if we shouldn't. We should just worry about the things over which we truly have control because if we don't have control and we worry about it, it just continues to promote and build fear. We shouldn't do that.

Linda: 24:14

And I, I agree enough to do a lot of work with companies and emergency preparedness, um, you know, has come a long way in terms of planning than it was and say 2001. But I mean I've dealt with companies where you could have someone whose disability could be that they have severe anxiety, you know, they're gonna freeze in some kind of an emergency situation. And so they may need a while, as you said, you know what, a group hug or a buddy to be able to function to get out of the building in an emergency situation. So it's not necessarily people that are, you know, blind or, you know, in a wheelchair. Oh no, not at all. Whatever.

Michael: 25:02

And I like the buddy system, but I think everyone should, in preparation for the potential for emergencies, have a buddy or two other people that work together. So you have a team of three that come from different offices so that you check on each other and make sure everybody is okay. Yeah. But I think that that makes a lot of sense to do.

Linda: 25:20

Yeah. And that's about something that, as I said, were, you know, we've come a long way.

We just had an emergency preparedness week in Canada a couple of weeks ago. And we're advocating for people to have a plan to get out of your house, should there be an emergency. Who's in a power wheelchair, if there was a fire in my house, I can't get out of bed by myself. And wouldn't he be reliant on somebody? Well, my husband was able to assist me. So your story is that, you know, we talk about being on things like Larry King Live and being recognized, you know, internationally as a motivational speaker, you know, based on your story. But, you know, it at the end of the day, the way you tell it was like, you know, I, I did what I needed to do in the situation,

Michael: 26:10

But I also knew what to do which made it easier to be able to do what I needed to do. And that's the important part. Knowledge is power and that's why I really am adamant about that people shouldn't just rely on signs, learn what to do. Know it, cause it will give you a lot more ability to control your attitude and your actions and your mindset.

Linda: 26:34

Yes. And you know that I will say persons with disabilities, we are, because of the barriers that we are constantly facing, our natural problem solvers because we, as you said, we have to have that knowledge in order. It's like me when I go out I need to know, can I get into the building When I get in the building, is there a lift or are there stairs? Are there any steps to get in? Do I need to bring a portable ramp? Is the doorway wide enough? All of that kind of stuff is research that needs to be done in advance of, or even trying to go anywhere. So, you know, I just want that kind of, I want to touch on your guide dogs that you've had. And so currently you have Alamo and that's your eighth guide dog.

Michael: 27:25

Yeah, Alamo with no. 8.

Linda

You've had a guide dog since you were 14 years old. And you know, I've seen just the amount of training that goes into guide dogs or special needs dogs, dogs that are specifically trained for people with autism. And the work that you've done with the Guide Dogs of America. I think guide dogs, honestly, who hit the nail on the head when you said that they're not there to lead you, they're there to, correct me, they're there to basically be your eyes. I guess from a certain perspective,

Michael: 28:05

The dog is not the brains of the output. And that doesn't mean the dog doesn't have brains.

The dog has a lot of intelligence. But the job of the dog is to make sure that we walk safely. And I have to learn to trust the dog to do that, just as the dog has to learn to trust me that I'm gonna give it good commands and I'm gonna know my part of the job. I think it takes a good year to truly and totally develop a relationship that is so solid when working with a guy dog. And I think with any dog, I think, to truly get that trusting relationship that two way trust is not something that happens overnight. But if you work at it and you enforce it and you reinforce it, it's like nothing else you could ever imagine.

Yeah, I'm constantly amazed that the work that goes into training them.

And I think they're extremely intelligent. I've seen some that are special needs dogs for persons that have a physical disability that can do everything from turn the lights on to get you a bottle of water out of the fridge. It's just amazing the work that they do. And so eight guide dogs in, do you still have to go through the same process every time you get a new one in terms, oh sure, going in for the training

Michael: 29:28

Absolutely because that training is where you're learning any new techniques that the school has developed, but also that's the time to start developing the bond. And then you've also got the trainers who are observing to make sure that the bond is doing well and that you two, the two of us are learning to get along well. So I think it's a very important process. There is also in-home training from a number of the schools. And it's the same thing. You start to work with the dog and everyone involved gets to evaluate and make sure that the bonding relationship is progressing well. There are also people who train their own dogs and that's also fine as long as they know how to do it. And one of the things I think it's important for people to recognize is that if you start working with a, let's say, a guide dog or whatever, the reality is that training is an ongoing process both ways. As we grow, we learn more about each other and that comes into play. But the bottom line is that it's an ongoing process to train and evolve the relationship. So as I said, it may take a year to truly develop to get to the place where everyone in the relationship is working seamlessly together. But still it keeps growing from there.

Linda: 30:44

So you've got it. I wonder because in 2001, how long had you had Roselle at that point?

Michael: 30:51

I had Roselle for about 42 months. I got Roselle, I think it was in July of 1998, I think it was. Yeah.

Linda

And so how long she, I'm gonna guess, became quite a celebrity when you were on your speaking tours and engagements.

Michael: 31:10

Oh, she was part of it. Yeah. And she got to visit with people as we were selling books and signing books. I would always attach, I take her harness off and attach her to a table leg so she could visit with people. She loved it as a Guide Dog since she also loved it.

Linda: 31:24

Yeah. So your book, now you've got your third book, I guess, coming out, “ThunderDog and I love the bio line, the true story of a blind man, a guide dog, and the triumph of trust.

And that trust really was like, she said, a two way thing for you to be able to escape what was truly, you know, one of the biggest disasters to ever befall well, North America. I'm gonna say on that note, you know I wanna thank you for your time and sharing your story with us about that experience. I think it's a, well, I've only known you for a couple of years and we're talking about an incident that happened almost 23 years ago now um but it, I find it such an inspiring story than anyone that I've ever talked to about it. And I said, oh, you've got to talk to Michael Hingson. He, you know, escaped the World Trade Center on 9-11 walking down. And first of all, just the physical demands of walking down 78 flights of stairs is, you know, just a testament to the work that and the trust that you did have with the Roselle. So I wanna thank you for inviting us today. And for our listeners, if you'd like to find out more about Michael Hingson, he has his website that will be, it's MichaelHingson.com. His contact information will be in the show notes and as well as the information if you're interested in finding out more about Michael and or his books that he's authored. So on that note, any final words Michael?

Michael: 32:58

I wanna thank you for letting us come on and chat with you today. And if anyone is looking for a speaker to come and speak, I am always willing to talk about that. And I really appreciate people reaching out.

Linda: 33:10

Great, that's great. So thanks very much. So until our next episode, thanks for tuning in and we will chat again soon cheers!

Outro: 33:20

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