AS:025 Barriers for Blind and Low Vision Individuals

Intro 0:02

Welcome to the accessibility solutions podcast hosted by Linda Hunt, an award-winning accessibility consultant, speaker, and author. With over 30 years experience in senior management roles and a deep passion for creating inclusive environments. Linda brings us unmatched expertise and credibility to our discussions join us as they explore transformative power of accessibility and inclusion in today's world. Through captivating conversations, Linda shares her wealth of knowledge provides practical solutions and sheds light on the latest trends and advancements in the field. Whether you're a business owner or disability advocate, or simply curious about the world of accessibility, this podcast is your go-to resource. Get ready to unlock new perspectives, break down barriers and embark on a journey of empowerment. Are you ready to create a more inclusive world? Well, let's begin. Welcome to the accessibility solutions podcast.

Linda 1:02

So welcome, everyone, and thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us on another episode of the Accessibility Solutions podcast. I am very pleased today to have a guest by Erin Edgar. Erin is an attorney and an entrepreneur who happens to be blind. She started her own law firm in 20 20 focusing on providing Wills, Trust, and other end-of-life documents primarily to parents of disabled adult children. When she's not working, she enjoys creative pursuits such as bird watching, music creation, and performance. She also provides herself on being an in-transformation junkie. Erin lives in North Carolina with her husband, So welcome Erin to the Accessibility Solutions podcast. And, that gives me a little bit of a list of things that we can start talking about. But I know that you wanted to talk about, and we do address as many barriers as we can on the on the podcast. And so I know that you wanted to talk about the barriers that exist for people who are blind, such yourself or low vision, related to the internet and cloud-based services. So give me some perspective in terms of, what you think those, individuals that are trying to access those services, the barriers that they're facing, with those and all kind of, let you take it from there.

Erin: 02:37

Well, first of all, Linda, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm grateful to be here and to have this opportunity to share my knowledge in service to others who may benefit from it. I, that's a total order. And that question about, you know, what barriers do we experience on a day-to-day basis with the internet? There are many and thundery as they say. I can talk for myself about the barriers that, totally blind people experience, or at least those who use a screen reading program to navigate the web. And I think that some of the most common barriers, come up when we are trying to not just read what's on the website, but actually interact with the site itself. So much of the internet is not really responsive so much as interactive these days. We're all trying to put, answer questions on a website, fill in a form to purchase something, or in my case, as a business owner who happens to have project management software to keep track of all the bits and pieces of stuff that need to get done, project management software that decides it wants to change itself overnight or the way in which I interact with it. Or Facebook or social networking. Facebook in particular loves changing the appearance and feel of its website so that it interacts with screen readers in a totally different way than it did yesterday. And those types of things really cause me the most headaches. I think for some people, it's kind of interesting to them like, oh, why is it today that this button or this control appears to be in a different place? For me, though, I appreciate having everything in the same place all the time and I do not quite understand why, you know websites feel the need to move things around and I can't get to it the same way I did before, as a keyboard user. For instance, people with a screen reader don't navigate with a mouse, we navigate with a keyboard. And so we entering keyboard commands to get to various things and all of a sudden they're not there. not to mention that we have to have a huge space in our head to remember all the keyboard commands not only to navigate a piece of software we might be using, but also to navigate our own screen reading program. And when those don't work, it does sometimes become frustrating.

Linda: 05:07

Yeah, I, mean I can't even imagine, certainly, as a person with a physical disability, we, you know we go out and I as I like to say, people with disabilities are just natural born problem solvers by the very virtue that we have to navigate barriers. But, as you said, if you get familiar with using a program or software, especially something in your business or something as basic as Facebook. And then one day you go on, and it's not working the way it worked the last time you were there. Now it's, incumbent on you, the person with the disability to figure it out, and, figure it out in enough, enough time. So that hopefully it stays the same again for, you know a little bit of time before you're faced with the same issue where all of a sudden it doesn't work again. And I know that there are a lot of online forms and a lot of online software that is not accessible for, people who are either blind or low vision. But there are, I have some colleagues that, have a physical disability and use a voice-activated software. In fact, I mean you can use Word now, and use a voice-activated software, but there are so many, forms, online for you to figure out. and a lot of them are government forms, that do not work with things like Dragon Dictate or any kind of voice-activated software. So there's that, so you've got the issue where the form is not working with your screen reader. Then, other people which may have a different type of disability, they may be able to see the form fine, but they can't fill it out anyway, because it's not an accessible form period one way of the other. So, and as I mentioned in your bio, you're based in North Carolina, so we're, you know, here in Canada, we certainly have some legislative requirements that websites be accessible to a certain level and I'm sure you can speak to what that requirement is in the United States that.

Erin: 07:19

I apologize, I thought you were.

Linda: 07:22

No, you go right ahead. That's kind of where I'd like you to maybe take this from. I'm here in terms of, so that's for web accessibility, right?

Erin: 07:32

I think, the requirements and I'm not super familiar with them really, because it's just not it's not the type of law that I practice, so I'm not super familiar. But my understanding is that websites need to be accessible enough so that we can interact with them on the basic, level and the requirements are Number 1, open to interpretation in a lot of ways and Number 2, most companies ignore them and get away with it because they're private companies they're not public entities that you know are required to meet them all and so however if they do serve the public they do have a you know there are certain requirements that need to be met but there's not a lot of enforceability so you know it can be the enforceability, of course, file a complaint against the company in court somewhere in whatever state there, you know, the company abides in but really in reality who has time money resources and insufficient attention to be able to do that when we're you know most of us private citizens and so when we use these sites you know there's not one standard by which they all operate, they have a programming like language standard or a web standard but, you know, not the accessibility standards can vary widely based on what requirements people choose to implement and most websites, you know, I will be candid there's been a lot of improvement and most things are fairly accessible, you know, and the makers of the various pieces of screen reading software have responded in cases where there has not been sufficient accessibility across the board to be able to come up with some solutions for sort of wide ranging issue that pop up but I think that we could all stand for a little more in like universal design and I think that's a term that got coined and I'm not sure by who but I kind of like it because you know it advocates making things accessible just because it's the right thing to do rather than making things accessible to people with disabilities because we have to and accessibility is not built in from the ground up accessibility is traditionally added on to a to a site or to a you know a company um platform or a you know user platform and not built in from the ground up and so because it's added on things get broken thanks for the general public sometimes even get broken when it's added on yeah I think that's one of the main problems it's not a consideration from the ground up and people you know are saying well it cost too much money because we don't really have any customers who need it and I had an experience where I contacted a company I pay a large amount of money for this cloud based software for my business and I believe that it is worth it to my clients to have it and I found something I wasn't able to do that was fairly needful and I contacted the company and I said I am a customer I need this thing fixed and I don't remember what it was and that's not important and the initial response I got was we never considered accessibility we just didn't think we'd have any blind attorney customers you're just not out there and I said you know I said yeah we're here and you know I use your site and I love your software but I have to be able to do this thing and to their credit you know within a couple days it was fixed we still have regular discussions they sent me a free gift because they really were appreciative that I you know contacted them and and we worked together and fixed it but I also have had experiences where companies just don't care and you know you reach out and it's incumbent upon those of us with disabilities to reach out as you stated before no one's gonna do it for us and so I reached out to several different companies and they're like their responses are either nothing or how do we fix it which makes me just go fall because how am I supposed to know how to fix it I am not responsible for that I'm a user I'm an end user not the person who built your silly system they're either you know ignored how do we fix it or we're gonna get to it eventually but there's no you know time limit deadline put on it.

Linda: 12:02

Well I think you had the nail on the head with the Assumption from this particular company that there would not that they would not have any blind or low vision lawyers that were practicing that would need that software and that in and of itself is, you know and whether it's a business that's selling you a software platform or you know any other kind of business that's hoping to sell you goods or services the you know legally persons with disabilities regardless of their ability have the same right to access goods and services as anyone so for them too much as I'm glad to hear that they worked with you and got fixed there the fact they just assumed that there would not be anybody that was either blind to low vision that was going to need to use their software was really a assumption be careful I I will tell you in the work that I do you are not, you know the first um or the only blind low vision attorney that I've met and know so as I said very much a there on their part and I I run into that I mean I use a power wheelchair but oh if there's a a restaurant that does not considered how I'm gonna get into the restaurant then that's basically them saying that you know we're not open for business to somebody that has a mobility impairment because you know we've got three steps to get up into our restaurant so now I'm not coming and caring businesses I I think you know you also hit the nail on the head with the comment that you know they didn't consider accessibility when when they were in this case building that software and I talk to people all the time where you know accessibility is cheaper to build in than it is to bolt on later so everybody just thought about it in terms of building accessibility in to whether it's developing a software opening a restaurant you know whatever it is they just built accessibility in from the start then you know we wouldn't be having a lot of these discussions that we you and I and and certainly other persons with disabilities um have on a you know on a daily basis and,

Erin: 14:34

I, for my part if I may I I am letting any blame go on that I think there is another thing that this points to not building accessibility and from the ground up points to the essential invisibility of those of us with disabilities in society there are a lot of instances in which I believe people are not doing it out of malice they're not saying we were just not gonna build it in they don't think about it because in their experience they have never encountered someone with a disability in their own lives or they don't plan for the disabled when setting up their business you know in whatever way because they've never encountered someone and if it's not in your experience you won't think about it it's just the default you know we're wired that way we think about it because we need that and our experience tells us you know we're going to need these solutions or were excluded in these ways and we you know we're gonna need assistance there but other people just they don't think about it and I'm not excusing it I'm saying this is why it happens and I do believe that to some extent it is the incumbent upon us as disabled individuals who live in a society that disregards us to a certain extent to become more visible and whether we do that through lobbying politically whether we do that for you know through getting others to advocate for us when we're not able to it's really important to be visible not just as a business owner or not just as a podcaster not just as these things that we do in our lives but also as fully and completely who we are which includes advocating for ourselves as disabled people and showing people that we really are around I mean harder.

Linda: 16:39

I, I totally agree I I say quite often right people they don't know what they don't know and so the more that people like you and I can speak up and advocate for change the more hopefully we will see that change starting to take place I I think back to, you know 50 years ago, you know were you know small groups of people that were advocating to make change and as a result of that in the United States I mean you have the Americans with Disabilities Act which has been around since 1992 so we're you know coming up over 30 years in Canada we don't have a federal legislation that mirrors the American Disabilities Act and so but that act itself was, you know started by people advocating and I mean that you know advocating and and protesting or call it whatever you want but for the need to be recognized and for the need to be treated the same as as everyone else regardless of their ability or disability so I just you know we've kinda touched on websites and I I'm just wondering in terms of the province of Ontario part of our accessibility legislation is that if you do provide documents and are requested to provide them in an alternate format there is a legal requirement to do so I'm wondering in the States do you have something like that where you can request alternate formats of documents from a business.

Erin: 18:28

Yes I believe so and you know we're required to provide the document in the format that is requested and so for instance if I was ever requested to provide a Braille document for someone I would need to do what I could to ensure that it got Braille and it was interesting because I thought that I was going to have a blind client it never ended up happening but when I thought about it I thought how am I going to ensure that person's document is brailled I don't have the facility to do that at the present time and so I looked into it and there are services that for me as a private individual slash business I would need to hire a private person to do it but there is a whole Department a whole like part of the department of corrections that Braille things like they give it to prisoners and they run it through a piece of software and Braille documents for for public businesses and things who request them and not public businesses but you know like public officials and uh big businesses who request them I didn't even know that and and in my research yeah in my research a friend of mine who used to work for the North Carolina Department of corrections told me that a lot of prisons at facilities to do all these Braille things so yes there there have been there are ways to request that and the business is required to provide that to my knowledge that's and,

Linda: 20:01

That's good and a lot of the training that I do, you know alternate formats um don't always have to be Braille but in you know in the case of uh going into a restaurant, for example, having someone read the menu to you is, you know is what we consider an alternate format doesn't mean they need to have a Braille menu they just need to be read out so you can choose what it is that you would like to order so that's you know that's another example of an alternate format

Erin: 20:32

Yeah it's very loosely interpreted in restaurants I mean most restaurants do not have Braille menus and from their standpoint, I can see why No 1 the biggest reason is their menus may change they have to get it redone and so for the smaller restaurants it's not cost-effective to have Braille menus their menus are more out to change and you know they don't have it redone but that being said I have gone into restaurants by myself before and said look you know I need someone to read the menu to me because I can't and I'm not gonna just sit here and order a tossed salad because I don't know what's on your menu so yeah alternate format can mean a lot of different things yeah and

Linda: 21:11

It's like as I it's just it's recognizing what the needs of the consumer or the customer that's sitting there in front of you needs and as you said you don't know they could have some awesome dish on that menu that if they read out the menu then you'll try it because that's something that really appeals to you so that's also good for their business anyway so Erin any kind of final last words on the navigating the barriers of the internet and then forms and software and you know that kind of thing before we wrap up.

Erin: 21:48

I will say that I will go back to something I said before which is that for me the challenge is nothing is ever in the same place and so I'm kind of learning to embrace that and as I do the one thing that jumps out at me is it just it seems I won't say just it takes a lot of patience on the part of the disabled person just to figure out how to navigate and interact with things that aren't necessarily made for us and it's also a very huge opportunity to promote change for the better and so I would encourage people not to or to avoid as much as possible the I just I'll never be able to do it type of mentality and to embrace however uncomfortable this is and I can certainly relate being a little more patient and if we can't get it to work speaking up about it because that is the way that change will be affected and I spent a lot of time wondering why is it incumbent upon me to speak up and then I realized it's incumbent upon me to speak up because as you said people don't know what they don't know so we can't force them to know things they don't that's just not logical or even fair and so it is incumbent upon us to speak up and tell people what doesn't work and why and then their responsibility is to fix it not ours.

Linda: 23:14

Exactly well, Erin thank you. You've been a wonderful guest for those that are listening, You can find Erin's contact information in the show notes Erin's website, her Facebook page, and her LinkedIn page, I'm all listed in the show notes, and until next time thanks again for joining us Erin thank you so much for being a wonderful guest and until next time. Cheers!

Outro: 23:26

Thank you for joining us on The Accessibility Solutions podcast hosted by Linda Hines. We hope these discussions have inspired you and provided valuable insights into the world of accessibility and inclusion. If you're ready to take the next steps in creating an accessible and inclusive environment. We invite you to book a personalized accessibility solutions consultation with Linda as an experienced accessibility consultant Lynda will work closely with you to develop innovative solutions tailored to your unique needs and challenges. Together you'll navigate the complexities of accessibility right Relations, explore inclusive design principles and implement practical strategies to ensure equal access for all. Don't miss this opportunity to make a real difference visit our website at solutions for accessibility.com. And that's the number four so solutions for accessibility.com scheduling a consultation today let's transform your space into an inclusive and welcoming environment for everyone. Thanks again for listening to the accessibility solutions podcast. Stay tuned for more empowering episodes as we continue our journey towards a more accessible world.